New Forum Rule: No debates with Ahl bidah.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Assalamu Alaykum

The Administration has approved a new rule for the English Multaqa, which is to ban any debates with deviant sects.

So if any member from ahl bidah (people of innovation) starts a debate, or gets into a discussion, in a matter of aqeedah, opposing the truth and spreading falsehood (his deviant beliefs), then he will get a warning, and if he repeats it again he will be banned.

This rule has been implemented in the Arabic Multaqa for many years and is now part of the English Multaqa.

[rizwan]

Salaam. I see the benefit in this but what about using this as a means of giving dawah to them by presenting them our proofs inshallah.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Wa alaykum assalam

If they want to learn, they can ask, but they are not allowed to debate and argue for the purpose of opposing the truth and spreading their false beliefs.

[ummeesa]

Alhamdulilaah. I have been waiting for this.

The common sentiment amongst Muslims nowadays is "live and let live," which extends to matters of aqeedah and thus confuses people.

To allow them to debate on a Ahlus Sunnah forum will give the impression that they are equal but different, which is incorrect.

If they wish to argue this is a double standard since many members here visit their forums to debate them, well it's comparing apples and oranges since they come to spread falsehood while others debate them to clarify the truth. Also, they could ban debates too if they want, no one is stopping them.

[rizwan]

Salaam. Yeah i see your point its has good intentions because we dont want people to end up opposing the clear truth.

[al-boriqee]

Asalamu alaikum

I'm all for it salafistically speaking.

However let everyone here understand that this rule
nor any of the intentions states Therein
is going to be understood by anyone in the
way we have understood it. It is by default
going to be viewed that we are intolerant
and all that other kalaam

secondly
the argument that we are justified and they
are not becauce their ahl bida and we are
ahl sunnah holds no water on the modern
platform of Islamic polemics or any polemic
for that matter. This manhaj Bears the best
fruits and the best results when the norm of
the atmosphere is sunni. It has the least fruit
when the general norm is bidi and fasaad.
It is almost as bankrupt as practicising tabdee
on a faasiq when pretty much the entire populace
are faasiqoon.

Just my two cents

[ahmedcobra]

Why not state it clearly,

NEW FORUM RULE: "Posts expossing the salafiyyah will be deleted".

If I had known that the moderators of this forum running in the name of Islam , salaf & hadith are not ready to face openly someone whom they call "deviant", I would not have wasted my precious time on this forum, ultimately having all my posts deleted. The members on IA weren't so scared to face the truth as the ones on this are. And Umm Abdullah to act this way even after freely arguing many times on marifah forums under the name NMS is indeed sad.

If the truth was really on the side of the salafiyyah, then would there have been a need to hide ?

"When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish."{17:81}

May Allah guides us all to the sirat al Mustaqeem.

Peace & Blessings be upon all His Noble Messengers

walaikum assalaam wr wbr

[al bakistani]

I don't like Sufi/Soviet (sunni) forums for this same reason. Line between a debate/argument and questions for learning is very thin. Anyways this is just an observation.

[ummeesa]

Originally Posted by ahmedcobra

Why not state it clearly,

NEW FORUM RULE: "Posts expossing the salafiyyah will be deleted".

If I had known that the moderators of this forum running in the name of Islam , salaf & hadith are not ready to face openly someone whom they call "deviant", I would not have wasted my precious time on this forum, ultimately having all my posts deleted. The members on IA weren't so scared to face the truth as the ones on this are. And Umm Abdullah to act this way even after freely arguing many times on marifah forums under the name NMS is indeed sad.

If the truth was really on the side of the salafiyyah, then would there have been a need to hide ?

"When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish."{17:81}

May Allah guides us all to the sirat al Mustaqeem.

Peace & Blessings be upon all His Noble Messengers

walaikum assalaam wr wbr

The issue is not hiding. This is an open forum and any layperson, student, scholar, or non-Muslim can come and read freely. Because of this there is a myriad of levels of understanding of the deen, the least of which would be in jeopardy if people like you keep coming and insinuating baseless arguments (and in your case with mockery) without evidence to back you. Basically, the ignorant can be fooled by other ignorants.

This is why Imam Maalik (rahimahullah) kicked out the person who asked him about istiwaa' from his majlis.

I agree with you on one thing, you definitely wasted your time here.

[Muhammad Salman]

as-salamu 'alaykum

finally, allhamdulillah - the line between the two is indeed very fine.

cobra, who asked you to waste your time here? You guys have been refuted and humiliated to death even in your own forums. So why complain?

[ahmedcobra]

Basically, the ignorant can be fooled by other ignorants.

Is this the policy of this forum? Or Is it that the salafiyyah on this forum are ignorants?

Anyway, I have the transcript still with me. It might pop up on other sites. Let everyone see who was indeed making a mockery out of Islam and Allah. Let everyone see if ur repeated slanders upon me is indeed the truth.

PEACE OUT!

[ahmedcobra]

Not to forget, the uthman khamees thread which lasted 2 pages and then suddenly closed, Now is reduced to 1page with only 1 post of mine left behind which gives a completey different opinion of my beliefs and intention of asking the question.

And Allah has Knowledge over all things.

[Fahim Senzai]

Alhamdulillah! I like this rule. The Salaf did not argue with the people of Bidah for no reason.

[Haitham Hamdan]

Jazakillahu khairan sister Um Abdillah.
Good decision. It was your idea to begin with.

[Fahim Senzai]

The Salaf and their Position Towards The People of Innovations & Desires
by Imam al-Laalikaa'ee

Al-Imam al-Hafiz Abul-Qaasim Habatullaah ibn al-Hasan ibn Mansoor at-Tabaree AL - LAALIKAA'EE (d.418 H) reports in his ' Sharh Usool I'tiqaad Ahlis-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah ' (1/135-136/no. 252)

"Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn al-Qasim related to us, saying :
Ahmad ibn al-Hasan narrated to us saying :
Sulaymaan ibn al-Asha'ath narrated to us, saying :
Abdullaah ibn Chubby al-Antique narrated to us, saying :
Yaws ibn Asbaat narrated to us, saying :
*I heard Muhammad ibn an-Nadr al-Haarithee say: "Whoever listens to a person of innovation - and knows that he is a person of innovation - then protection is taken away from him, and he is left to himself."

& Imaam Aboo 'Abdullaah ibn Muhammad IBN BATTAH al-'Akbaree al-Hanbalee (d. 387 H) reports it in his 'Ibaanatul-Kubra' (2/460/no.443):

"Abul-Qaasim Hafs ibn 'Umar narrated to us, saying :
Aboo Haatim ar-Raazee narrated to us, saying :
Muhammad ibn 'Ubaadah ibn al-Bakhtaree narrated to us, saying :
'Ubaadah ibn Kulayb Aboo Ghassan al-Laythee narrated to us :
*from Muhammad ibn an-Nadr al-Haarithee, who said: "Whoever listens to a person of innovation and knows that he is a person of innovation - then he is left to himself and leaves the protection of Allaah."

adh-Dhahabee said of him in 'Siyar A'laamin-Nubalaa' (8/175-176) : "Muhammad ibn an-Nadr, Aboo 'Abdur -Rahman, al-Haarithee, al-Koofee: The worshipper of the people of his time in koofah. He reported from al-Awzaa'ee and others. From him (report): Ibn Mahdee, Khaalid ibn Yazeed, Jareer ibn Ziyaad & Aboo Nasr at-Tammar - some sayings. Aboo Usaamah said : "He was one of the greatest worshippers in Koofah."

And 'Abdul-Quddoos ibn Bakr narrated from Muhammad ibn an-Nadr that he said : "The greatest start of Knowledge is to listen and remain silent, then to memorise it, then to act upon it, then to spread it."

Ibn al-Mubaarak said : "When Muhammad ibn an-Nadr used to mention death his joints would tremble."

And from Abul-Ahwas who said : "Muhammad ibn an-Nadr made a promise upon himself that he would not sleep unless his eye became overcome with sleep."

IBN BATTAH also reports in 'al-Ibaantul-Kubra' (2/461/no.444):
"Abul-Qaasim Hafs ibn 'Umar narrated to us, saying :
Aboo Haatim narrated to us, saying :
*ibn Ibraheem an-Neesaabooree narrated to us, saying :
Checker said: * Unclear in manuscript
al-Husayn ibn ar-Rabee' narrated to us, saying :
Yahyaa ibn 'Umar ath-Thaqafee narrated to us, that he heard :
SUFYAAN ATH-THAWREE say ;
"Whoever listens to a person of innovation leaves the protection of Allaah and is left to himself. "

Beware of friendship with the people of the innovated sects, innovated beliefs and people of deviation, beware of sitting with them and beware of listening to them or hearing or reading their words, beware of debating with them and arguing with them - and allowing them to quote their misguided beliefs to you. Imam al-Laalikaa'ee mentions a large number of narration's from the Salaf warning against associating with the people of innovation in his 'Sharh Usool I'tiqaad Ahlis-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah' - here are some of them (chains of narration omitted):-

(31)...from Ayyoob (as-Sakhtiyaanee) who said: "Indeed from the well-being of a youth or a non-Arab is that Allah should guide them to a scholar from the companions of the Sunnah."

(32) ... from Ibn Shawdhab who said : "indeed from the blessings of Allah upon a youth who seeks to worship Allah is that he is granted as a brother a companion of the Sunnah who encourages him upon it."

(196)... from 'Abdur-Rahman ibn Yazeed who said : I heard 'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood say: "Beware of the innovations which the people invent, since the Deen does not pass out of the hearts all at once - rather Shaitaan introduces innovations for him until he expels Eemaan from the heart; and it will soon happen that the people will abandon the obligatory duties which Allaah has made binding upon them - the Prayer, the Fast, the lawful and the prohibited, and speak about their Lord - the Mighty and Majestic. So who ever reaches that time then let him flee." It was said: O Aboo Abdur-Rahman, to where? He said: "Not to anywhere, he should flee with his heart and his Deen and not sit with anyone of the people of innovation."

(199)...From Mujaahid who said: "It was said to Ibn Umar that Najdah says so and so ..., but he stopped himself from hearing it for fear that some of it would fall into his heart."

(240)...From Al-Hasan [i.e. Al-Basaree] who used to say: "Do not sit with the people of innovated beliefs, do not debate with them and do not listen to them."

(242)...(From) Sa'eed ibn 'Aamir who said: I heard Ismaa'eel [i.e. Ibn Khaarijah] narrate, saying: two men from the people of the innovated sects came to Muhammad Ibn Seereen and said: "O Aboo Bakr we want to narrate something to you." He said: "No." They said: "Then may we recite an Aayah from Allaah's book to you?" He said: "No." He said: "Either you two get up and leave or I will get up." So the two men stood up and left. So one of the people said: "What harm would it do to you for him to recite an Aayah?" He said: "I hated that he should recite an Aayah and that they would distort it and then it would enter my heart."

(244)...From Aboo Qulaabah who said: "Do not sit with them and do not mix with them for I do not feel safe that they will not drown you in their misguidance and confuse you about much that you used to know."

(246)...From Ayyoob as-Sakhtiyaanee who said: Aboo Qulaabah said to me "O Ayyoob, memorise four things from me: Do not speak about the Quraan from your opinion, and beware of Qadr, and if the companions of Muhammad are mentioned then withhold, and do not let the people of innovation gain access to your hearing."

(248)...Ma'mar said: Ibn - Taawoos was sitting when one of the Mu'tazilah came and began speaking, so ibn Taawoos entered his fingers into his ears and said to his son: "O My son put your fingers into your ears and press tightly so you do not hear any of his speech." Ma'mar said: Meaning that the heart is weak.

(249)...'Abdur Razzaaq narrated to us saying: Ibraaheem ibn Abee Yahya said to me: "I think that there are many from the Mu'tazilah in your area!?" I said: "Yes and they claim that you are one of them." He said: "Will you enter this shop with me so that I can speak with you?" I said: "No." He said: "Why?!" I said: "Since the heart is weak and the Deen is not for the one who overcomes in debating."

(251)...From Al-Awzaa'ee who said: 'Umar ibn 'Abdul - 'Azeez said: "if you see a people meeting secretly concerning the Deen with anything to the exclusion of the common people - then know that they are upon the foundation of misguidance."

(252)...Yoosaf ibn Asbaat said: I heard Muhammad Ibn An - Nadral - Haarithee say: "Whoever lends ear to an innovator - and knows that he is an innovator then the protection is removed form him and he is left to himself."

(253)...Yoonus ibn ' Ubayd said: "Do not sit with a ruler or an innovator ."

(254)...Amad ibn Yoonus said: A man said to Sufyaan - and I was listening - 'O Aboo' Abdullaah advice me.' He said: "Beware of innovated sects and disputation and beware of rulers."

(259)...Yahyaa ibn Abee Katheer said: "If you see a person of innovation upon a certain road then take a different one."

(260)...Ismaa'eel at - Toosee said: Ibn al - Mubaarak said to me: "let your sitting be with the poor and beware of sitting with a person of innovation."

(261)...al - Fudayl ibn 'Iyaad said: "Whichever man someone comes to asking for advice and he directs him to an innovator then he has acted deceitfully towards Islam, and beware of entering upon a person of innovation since they prevent from the truth."

(262)...al - Fudayl said; "Do not sit with an innovator for I fear that curses will descend upon you."

(263)...al - Fudayl said: "Do not sit with an innovator - Allaah has rendered his deeds futile and taken out the light of Islaam from his heart, and if Allaah loves a servant he grants him good and pure food."

(264)... al - Fudayl said : "Do not trust the innovator concerning your Deen, and do not seek his advice in your affairs, and do not sit with him since whoever sits with an innovator - Allah will cause him to become blind."

(265)...al-Fudayl said: "Allah has angels who seek out the gatherings of dhikr - so look to whose gathering you sit in - let it not be with the person of innovation since Allah will not look to them, and the sign of Hypocrisy is that a man gets up and sits with an innovator."

(266)... al-Fudayl said: "" The souls of pre-arranged armies - so whichever of them knew each other will come together, and those who did not will be separate, " and it is not possible that a person of Sunnah assists an innovator except due to hypocrisy."

(267)... al-Fudayl said: "I reached the best of the people - all of them were people of the Sunnah and they warned against the people of innovation."

(268)... al-Fudayl said: "Glad tidings for one who died upon Islam and the Sunnah - and if that is the case then let one say much : As Allah wills (Maa Shaa Allah)."

(270)... al Hasan said: "From the person of innovation Allah does not accept Prayer, nor Fasting, nor Hajj, nor 'Umra, nor Jihaad, nor repentance, nor charity."

(271)... al Hasan said: "Allah does not accept anything from a person of innovation."

(272)... al-Fudayl ibn 'Iyaad said: "No action of the person of innovation is raised up to Allah."

(273)... Ibraaheem ibn Maysarah said: "He who honours an innovator has assisted in the demolition of Islaam."

(274)... 'Abdullaah ibn 'Umar as-Sarkhusee - the scholar of al-Khazar - said: I ate a single meal with an innovator and Ibn al-Mubaarak heard of it so he said : "I will not speak to him for thirty days."

(275)... al-Fudayl said: Ibn al-Mubaarak said: "I have not seen any wealth which I despise more than that of a person of innovation and he said: 'O Allah do not let any innovator give me anything so that my heart should love him."

(276)... from Ibraaheem [i.e. an-Nakha'ee] who said: "There is no backbiting regarding an innovator."

(278)... from al-Hasan al-Basaree, who said: "There are three who have no inviolability with regard to backbiting: one of them is the person of innovation who calls to his innovation."

(281)... from Katheer, Aboo Sahl who said: "It is said that there is no inviolability for the people of innovated sects."

(284)... from 'Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak said: "The person of innovation has darkness in his face even if he anoints it thirty times a day."

(286)... Sallaam ibn Abee Mutee' said: a man said to Ayyoob: 'O Abu Bakr, 'Amr ibn 'Ubayd has turned back from his opinion !!' He said: "He has not turned back." He said: 'Indeed, O Aboo Bakr, he has turned back." Ayyoob said: "He has not turned back - (three times) - he has not turned back. Have you not heard his () saying:"They shoot out from the Deen just as the arrow shoots through the prey, then they do not return to it until the arrow returns to the bow - string"."

(290)... Ayyoob used to call all the people of the innovated sects 'Khawaarij' and say : "The Khawaarij have different names but are all united upon use of the sword."

(291)... Sallaam said: A person of the innovated sects said to Ayyoob : "I want ask you about a word." He turned away and said: " No, nor even a half a word." - Twice indicating with his finger.

(293)... Malik ibn Anas said: " Is to be the case that every time someone comes who can argue better than another that we are to abandon what Jibreel brought to Muhammad () because of his argument?!"

[alsadi]

If the truth was really on the side of the salafiyyah, then would there have been a need to hide ?

da! hello, we are talking about debates not people who don't know something and they seek proofs and guidance

the admins said questions, seeks answers for misconceptions, ..etc are welcome.

you remind me with a christian in a debate with brother Wisam (I guess)
the christian person was refuted by the skaikh with very sound reasoning
and in the last turn of that person, he said "I have no more arguments but I'll use the time to breach أكرز" and start trying to make people fear from their inherited original sin ..etc. and said if you thought this is a debate you won the debate but I wasn't debating

yes, people are abusing our good manners to just spread their corrupted ideas

when I tell people on chat that I'm a Muslim, every western person will ask me about Ayatullah! Their opinions are put every where, and it's presented to be Islam although that followers of Muhammad (that's us, people of Sunnah)
and main stream Muslims (that's too, Jama'a) don't give that person any importance and might consider him a disbeliever.

let the true be distinct from falsehood, if some misguided person wants answers he will get them, we have knowledgeable people to answer him

if all what he wants is a place for debating were he could just show his corrupted ideas, then no. there are many places for debates go to them.

[Um Abdullah M.]

This is not hiding, it is to stop ahl bidah from using this forum to spread their false beliefs.

There are many other forums where salafis debate with ahl bidah in matters of belief, you can go debate and argue there, there is no place for it here.

This is a place for learning (it is the purpose of the Arabic forum too since its begining) and not a place to argue with ahl bidah.

Not to forget, the uthman khamees thread which lasted 2 pages and then suddenly closed, Now is reduced to 1page with only 1 post of mine left behind which gives a completey different opinion of my beliefs and intention of asking the question.

My intention of leaving it wasn't to make people have the wrong idea about your beliefs, but I taught maybe some others had the same question and it will be beneficial to leave it and the answers to it, but since you beleive that it might give the wrong idea about ur beliefs I will remove it insha Allah.

[Um Abdullah M.]

A reminder
Ugly debates with people of innovation whose purpose is to spread falsehood and attack the haqq is not allowed in this forum, and will not be tolerated.
We have some members who are not in agreement with some of our beliefs but they do not turn a thread into an ugly debate opposing the haqq and spreading falsehood (i.e. jidal bil-batil), while we have some who do, turning almost every thread they post in into an ugly debate.